Bigotry in the Medical Blogosphere
Well, this is the last time I read or link to Scalpel or Sword.
It always upsets me when someone goes along and reveals their bigotry to me–”I so wanted to like you,” I say to myself. “But my respect for you just went down the drain.”
Scalpel tells a story of two patients who needed abscesses drained. One a child, the other, a gay man. He then proceeds to compare how the child reacted (very tolerant of the procedure) with how the gay man reacted:
He tolerated the procedure like, well….
John Edwards.
I gave Scalpel the benefit of the doubt. I figured, there’s no way in hell he’s calling his patient a faggot, is he? Honestly? Maybe there’s some new big campaign to label John Edwards as a coward, or weak, or a wimp or something?
But no, in the comments, a reader challenges him on the point, and he doesn’t deny it. His reaction? “Well, I’ll probably keep posting anyway. Y’all can come and go as you please, I don’t mind.” You might as well just delete John Edwards and type faggot, Scalpel. We can read between your lines.
Should I begin with the fact that a so highly-educated and seemingly intelligent physician can be such a bigot? Or maybe I should replace faggot with the n-word, or some other derogatory slur and see if it’s still okay? Or how about the notion that faggots like me are just as tough and brave as any other person out there? (And if you’re in Scalpel’s camp, drop the stereotypes and meet more than your one gay acquaintance.) Hell, we’ve probably faced more harassment, hatred, and violence (from people like Scalpel) than he ever will–just for being who we are (Please correct me if you’re not an upper-middle class white male, Scalpel.)
I guess the silver lining of it all is that at least we get to know Scalpel’s true feelings. Apparently it’s still okay to be derogatory to a gay person, so he’s fine telling the world how he feels about them. I wonder what he thinks of black people, or Latinos, or the poor, or women. We’ll probably never know.
It’s sad to think that Scalpel has never met a gay person that has corrected him, put him in his place, or has made him change his perspective. I’m sure Scalpel actually knows plenty of LGBT people; they’re probably among his friends, family, and colleagues—but they all know what he thinks of faggots, so they know not to reveal themselves in his company.
Scalpel has the right to say whatever he wants, but we also have the right to object and take a stand. Do I think it will make Scalpel change his perspective? Not at all. But it’ll at least show him that he is in the minority, and that his bigotry is stupid, ignorant, and unprofessional. What a terrible face to give Emergency Medicine physicians and the profession in general.
I hope you’ll agree, and post your own reaction on your blog or the comments.
Maybe “bigotry in the medical blogosphere” would be a better title? I’m well aware of the bigotry in the political blog circles that I don’t frequent, but it’s always more upsetting to find it in one of our own.
I’m sorry that you’ve had to encounter such blatant prejudice among your fellow medical bloggers. It’s unfortunate that the relative anonymity of the blogosphere often gives license to prejudices and hatreds that aren’t normally expressed in the light of day. Kudos to you for taking a stand; I know you’re not the only one.
I added your site to my feed just a couple of days ago and am looking to add more. I’m glad I didn’t find Scalpel or Sword before I read this post. This saves me the trouble of visiting the site AND removing him from my feed reader after a post like this. It’s a fact of life that there are bigots everywhere we turn, but it’s still tough to take. Keep up your good work as a good doc and don’t let folks like this get you down. The hatred inside him prevents him from being the best physician he can be – as does any hatred you have for him in return. You’ve made your point, send him your blessings that he’ll someday understand, and be on your way.
So gay jokes are off limits? How uber-sensitive of you.
Blogs are for ranting. I treated that patient with extra sensitivity because I knew he was a wimp with a low pain tolerance. Sheesh.
You know not about what you speak.
yeah, you know what scalpel, i think gay jokes ARE off limits. kind of the same way that derogatory jokes about any other minority group are off limits. i think you could rant just fine about a patient with a low pain threshold without straining to connect it to his sexual orientation, even if it happens to fit your stereotyped view of gay people.
glad you’re not my doctor!
All around the medical blogosphere there are rants about hysterical Hispanics (poly I), African Americans (poly lordy), gold teeth, tattoos, white trash (teeth/tattoo ratio), Medicaid Escalades, ebonic talk, and the like.
If we are bigots, we are equal-opportunity bigots, which sort of argues against the presence of bigotry at all (to anyone with any common sense).
I’m not prejudiced against any ethnic or lifestyle group, but I reserve the right to make fun of any of them any time I want. That’s not bigotry. You don’t know me, and it’s pathetic of you to assume that I give anyone less than the most compassionate professional care because of anything I write on the internets. And nobody has ever faced any “hatred or violence” from me, and I don’t discriminate against anyone because of sexual preference, race, gender, or other demographic feature.
You are making far too much drama out of this than is necessary. Yuk, yuk.
i know it strikes you as overly histrionic, but i think this is actually a more important issue than you are recognizing–maybe this is because you are not well-acquainted with the subtler forms of discrimination.
scalpel wrote:
> All around the medical blogosphere there are rants about hysterical
> Hispanics (poly I), African Americans (poly lordy), gold teeth, tattoos,
> white trash (teeth/tattoo ratio), Medicaid Escalades, ebonic talk, and the
> like.”
oh, good.
> If we are bigots, we are equal-opportunity bigots, which sort of argues
> against the presence of bigotry at all
i am not following your logic. if you were making fun of all *people* then that’s not bigoted (just mean). but you’re talking about making denigrating comments about groups of people by race, class, and sexual orientation, which is pretty much the definition of bigotry, even (especially?) if it happens to be directed at every group (except your own?).
> I’m not prejudiced against any ethnic or lifestyle group, but I reserve
> the right to make fun of any of them any time I want. That’s not bigotry.
as above, i think that if “making fun” consists of making remarks denigrating a minority group, that pretty much is bigotry. sure it’s not the same as hatred and violence, but it definitely contributes to an atmosphere encouraging the more hateful and violent among us to think their views and actions are normal and acceptable.
this goes back to my earlier point that you could have made fun of this man just as well without making his pain threshold a feature of his sexuality. i think it would be better if you just treated people like people, not posterchildren of their race, creed, gender, or orientation.
this reminds me of a med student i know (definitely not someone anyone would call a racist guy) who was telling me about a health code violation at a restaurant that was traced to “a hispanic employee.” now, why does the employee’s race have anything to do with the story? it didn’t–it just happened to fit with an unconscious stereotype he had.
i think one reason this topic is especially sensitive for some of us is that there can be fear among gay people about being completely open and honest with medical personnel, precisely because of these sorts of attitudes. i’ve felt that attitude before in a doctor’s office (though i’m sure the doctor wasn’t aware of how she was coming across) and it was not fun. and anything that encourages patients to hold back info from their doctors is dangerous.
hope this makes sense.
If people don’t act like their stereotypes, then they don’t get made fun of for acting like the stereotypes. Then they are just normal people.
And nonminorities are just as likely to taste my sword if they act out. The socialite who drops the name of the hospital CEO or the physician who expects special treatment, the old white dude who whispers to me that he doesn’t want the black nurse to take care of him, thinking that I’ll understand because I look like him. Most drug-seekers are Caucasian, and I hate them more than anything. It isn’t about who you are or what you look like, it’s about how you ACT.
I really don’t care if anyone is gay or not, I’m going to treat them exactly the same as anyone else. But anyone who comes into the ER with a carrot up their ass is definitely going to get satirized. Deal with it.
Your West coast liberal PC is foreign to me. The one group I am truly bigoted against is freaking holier-than-thou liberals. I admit it. Everything ultimately comes down to red vs. blue it seems.
Oh for God’s sakes—no offense, but you used the term “Gomer” in one of your own posts. That term for elderly sick people could, in itself, be interpreted as “discrimanatory”–n’est ce pas? And speaking about stereotypes, if I let every blogger who complains about alcoholics piss me off, I’d be pitching a hissy fit every time I turned my computer on. But I don’t. It’s their right to say and believe as they choose–and since this is America, I believe in their right to do that. I think you need to take a chill pill on this one…
Good lord, have you ever actually worked in an ED? For even a minute? Calling someone a “John Edwards” is probably the friendliest thing I’ve heard. Gorked out, tattoo/teeth ratio, I can’t even begin to cover the slang I’ve heard. And that’s just from ED _workers_, let alone what your patients will call you. If your sensibilities are this tender, I would strongly suggest avoiding the ED, surgery, inpatient medicine… well, I hear radiologists usually don’t know their pts well enough to say mean things, if that helps.
GOMER is “Get Out of My ER,” not old person.
Yes, I’ve work in an ER, and I’ve joked about my share of patients, yes, but never once did I call a patient a *faggot* or any other derogatory term.
Scalpel was not singling out the person and calling him weak, or wimpy, or even stupid for the patient’s behavior. He referred to the patient by a derogatory term, a slur.
If you’d honestly be fine with him calling the patient the N word, or chink, or spic, or towelhead, or dyke, or any other slur, then I guess there’s nothing I can tell you to change your mind.
If I remember right, John Edwards was a trial lawyer before his (one) Senate term. So, yes, if I were an ER physician I’d be more than a little anxious if Mr. Edwards or one of his colleagues showed up!
Give me a fucking BREAK, “Graham”—all ER people know what the term GOMER really means—it’s a rude DEROGATORY term for a gorked out elderly person that they stick in the corner and ridicule by quoting House of God Rules i.e. “Gomers always go to Ground”. Who are you kidding? Sure, I’ve used the term, just as I’ve used all the rest of the slang terms of the ER environment, being a veteran ER nurse. But I certainly never got “holier than thou” like you’re doing on this stupid John Edwards term, when everybody knows that it’s simply being bandied about as the current joke-du-jour in the face of the recent political snafu caused by what’s-her-face’s comments. (You DO watch TV don’t you?) Next you’ll be calling for Scalpel to go to rehab, HEH! People like you need to get off the cross–CUZ WE NEED THE WOOD.
i think Graham’s point is perhaps the easiest way to break through this mental block: recall the original story, substitute a stereotyped behavior associated with black people, and a joke some celebrity had made using the N word. would this still be acceptable?
scalpel, i give you the benefit of the doubt when you say you really treat everyone the same who is in your care. but clearly you don’t think of everyone the same way or treat them the same way in your blog: those who belong to stereotyped minority groups and behave a certain way are treated as proof that your stereotypes are valid and that the group (not just the individual) can be denigrated. furthermore, you seem to continue to miss my point that there is a difference between mocking a person and mocking an entire minority group, one that faces continuing discrimination and violence in our society. it seems very clear to me in your original post that that’s what you were doing.
Bohemian Road Nurse, your argument seems to be that the fact that everyone does something (e.g. a “joke-du-jour”) makes it OK, no matter what it is. i think we can all see how false that logic is. i would ask that instead of defending a practice just because it’s common, when you hear someone say that they find it bigoted, think about it and come to your own conclusion rather than trust mob rule (or, if you are feeling particularly generous, just trust the conclusion of the group that feels denigrated and knock it off). i’m sure we can all think of jokes of our american past that were very much “du-jour” but nonetheless were unambiguously unjustifiable–and universally recognized as such today.
And Tim, my sanctimonious friend, PUH-LEEZE! Spare me your last-ditch reasoning, because I’ll bet you a month’s paycheck that you’re a total hypocrite. Tell me truthfully that you’ve never “followed the crowd” (or what you call “mob rule”) by using the terms “bitch”, “dumb-blonde”, “drunk”, “religious fanatic”, “religious fundamentalist”, “hysterical female”, “woman driver” or some other popular derogatory term. GO ON–I DARE YA TO LIE! Our culture uses derogatory terms every day and it’s only lately that people have started to freak out about it and throw conniption fits on the sidewalk. And I’ll bet money that you’ve told a Jewish joke, an African American joke, a religious joke, a terrorist joke, a lawyer joke, or a dumb-blonde joke. And what’s more–I’ll bet you’ve told sexual-preference jokes in the boy’s locker room with the best of them. Hell, I’ve heard priests make off-color and derogatory jokes which would make your ears curl—so do ya really think I believe that you are the sole person on earth who’s a saint in this regard? Like I said before, give me a break….
WHAT is going on in here??? I think one of the main points to be clarified is this. Are you a member of a minority group or group of people against whom violence is routinely threatened or committed? Is there a name others routinely label members of your group as they beat you, threaten you, attempt to kill you, and generally try to silence you and make you invisible? Do you want this stereotypical violent behavior to continue against your group?
You must be able to see my point in some small way-Doesn’t it seem that labeling my group in a belittling way as ‘faggots’ continues the idea that we are all sissies who should at the very least simper and fade away or for those who truly hate us-be exterminted?!
Bohemian Road Nurse:
yeah, i seem to remember when people started to throw “conniption fits” regarding derogatory jokes. it was around the start of the civil rights movement, wasn’t it?
i may have followed the crowd on occasion, but i have certainly never told a joke that demeaned jews, women, african americans… i mean, who DOES that? do you? if so, i think you should think more about it, and try to stop. jokes denigrating minority groups that still face discrimination and hate crimes are not ok. i kind of thought educated people took that as an axiom. it’s not like there isn’t enough other material in the world to make jokes about.
and no, i don’t tell sexual orientation jokes in the locker room. i’m gay. that would sort of be shooting myself in the foot, wouldn’t it?
i’m not trying to be sanctimonious here. i’m just asking you not to say that it’s ok to make demeaning remarks about gay people. believe it or not, it actually really does make a difference. we’d really appreciate it.
BRN: If you’re honestly this upset, I think it’s time to take a break. You’ve clearly got some pent up hostility, and it’s being taken out on the blog. Again, if you’re fine with calling a group of people a derogatory slur, I can’t argue with you.
(And I’ve never actually used the word ‘gomer,’ nor read House of God. And if you read my post about “GOMER,” you’ll see it has nothing to do with the elderly.)
Just because someone uses a term which offends somebody doesn’t make it a violence-provoking event. Nor should it it bring up a thought-history of past violence against that population of people. If that were the case, then every woman who had ever been traumatized by male violence would have the right to experience an anxiety attack over the use of the term “dumb blonde”, “hysterical female”, or whatever. This is America and people can make their comments at will, whether or not somebody else doesn’t like that comment. It may not be appreciated by some people, but those in society who dislike those comments need to lighten up, consider the source (like an ER and their gallows humor where EVERYTHING is fair game for humor), consider the context the comment was said in, and definitely consider the possibility that the term may have been used jokingly in a current-events media joke. (God, you’d think this was obvious…)
I’ve never actually commented on Graham’s blog before, but I read it quite often, so I thought I’d pitch in my two thoughts here.
Disclaimer: I’m not an MD or a medical student, but since general ignorance hasn’t stopped others from posting here (Road Nurse, Scalpel et al.), then why should medical ignorance stop me?
Here are a few thoughts on the discussion to date:
to Bohemian Road Nurse:
“It’s their right to say and believe as they choose–and since this is America, I believe in their right to do that. I think you need to take a chill pill on this one…”
Let us also not forget that Graham has the right and obligation to point out just how idiotic and sophomoric Scalpel apparently is. Apparently, however, you’d rather Graham just take a “chill pill” and let Scalpel’s vitriol go unchallenged.
“People like you need to get off the cross–CUZ WE NEED THE WOOD.”
I think people like Scalpel have other more inventive and enflaming uses for said cross. *snap*
“Hell, I’ve heard priests make off-color and derogatory jokes which would make your ears curl.”
Because as catechism wisely teaches us, if a priest does it, it’s A-OK.
“It may not be appreciated by some people, but those in society who dislike those comments need to lighten up”
Thanks, but no. I’d much rather people like you and Scalpel join the rest of us in attempting to make society a better place. A hopeless wish, I know.
to Scalpel:
“If people don’t act like their stereotypes, then they don’t get made fun of for acting like the stereotypes. Then they are just normal people.”
It’s good you’ve worked this out. Totally refreshing. Most bigots don’t bother to systematically classify appropriate guidelines for their prejudicial rhetoric.
“And nonminorities are just as likely to taste my sword if they act out.”
Let’s hope your satirical “sword” isn’t as dull as your wit.
“I really don’t care if anyone is gay or not, I’m going to treat them exactly the same as anyone else.”
Forgetting, of course, that they ARE exactly the same as everyone else. But kudos for trying.
“Your West coast liberal PC is foreign to me. The one group I am truly bigoted against is freaking holier-than-thou liberals. I admit it. Everything ultimately comes down to red vs. blue it seems.”
We don’t really like you either.
-G
The number of medical blog RSS feeds I have is pretty low, and often I wish I would go read more. But today, I’m glad to see that it is your blog on my RSS feed and not Scalpel or Sword.
In my life, I’ve made comments that have been taken as offensive and immediately regretted it, and learned from the situation (if someone points it out to me). Scalpel clearly doesn’t get it.
“If people don’t act like their stereotypes, then they don’t get made fun of for acting like the stereotypes. Then they are just normal people.”
This statement is the farthest from the truth. I am one of the top runners on my track team, a main player on my (very competitive) high school soccer team and have been an overall athlethe all my life. Now I wouldn’t consider myself openly gay for high school (compared to my theater brethren), but if someone asks me I am hardly going to deny it. Yet for all my athletic accomplishments that are well known throughout the school I always wonder, why am I almost always one of the last people to be picked for gym teams? I sit in class scratching my head as the overweight kid is picked before me and wonder, have I pissed anyone off that I don’t know about? No, it’s simply that once people know your a certain thing (gay, black, asian, etc.) they will treat you like that. It takes someone with great character not to do so.
Now, I am not saying that Scapel did anything wrong by my standards. I am far from being politically correct and know that when I see black people in my town I am surprised. It’s just to say that people almost always adhere to sterotypes, no matter how little the person in question acts like it.
(Cross-posted at Scalpel’s)
Honestly, the political comment annoyed me more than the purported gay-bashing. I am highly pro-gay and know and work with many gays who are friends. They come in all flavors: straight-acting to bears to flaming fems and everything in between, and as long as the comment isn’t motivated out of or communicating hate, I have no problem with gently mocking the funniest of each.
However, I just don’t get the Edwards thing. It’s bullshit and off topic. I know that the famous whore Coulter called him a “fag”, so I get where you are coming from. But it’s false and (worse) stupid. He’s married with kids and not fem at all. I guess if you just want to randomly mock a left-winger, one slur will do as well as another. But it’s dumb.
If you are going to insult someone it works better if you pick a real attribute to mock. For example, Bush is a blithering moron who can’t read a teleprompter let alone a policy paper, McCain is so fucking old his Depends stink of his maverick-juice, and Guliani married his own cousin (insert your own punchline; it’s too easy).
And as for Coulter, I think she probably looked better before she became a woman.
Hey, politics ain’t beanbag.
Take a bunch of chill pills, y’all.
Flea
“they ARE exactly the same as everyone else.”
Umm, not quite. Thus my original post, and the reaction to it here. We’re all different in various and interesting ways, and it isn’t necessarily bigotry to point out those differences. Stereotypes have a foundation in truth or they wouldn’t make sense to anyone.
I think Howard said it best:
Howard the “Doc” said…
In a nutshell:
1. Graham, from “Over My Med Body,” you have a right to your opinion, and so does everyone else. But ignorant people thrive on overreaction. So don’t let people get to you so easily. It makes you look like a tool.
2. Scalpel, you suck at telling jokes. Stay away from controversial material, and stick to what you’re good at: talking about “cool medical stuff,” and having sex with goats. Ya dumb hick.
–From a gay corpsman (medic) stationed in Camp Pendleton with 2/5 Infantry Division who happens to like both your blogs.
3/11/2007 06:28:00 PM
In a nutshell:
1. Graham, from “Over My Med Body,” you have a right to your opinion, and so does everyone else. But ignorant people thrive on overreaction. So don’t let people get to you so easily. It makes you look like a tool.
2. Scalpel, you suck at telling jokes. Stay away from controversial material, and stick to what you’re good at: talking about “cool medical stuff,” and having sex with goats. Ya dumb hick.
–From a gay corpsman (medic) stationed in Camp Pendleton with 2/5 Infantry Division who happens to like both your blogs. Really.
(Crossposted at Scalpel’s)
As much as we disagree on some things, scalpel, it is nonetheless inappropriate to impugn your professional acumen on the grounds of an attempt at blog humour.
Personally I reckon big strapping adult males often have the lowest pain thresholds. Whilst I might chortle internally or joke with a nurse later about this – the patient would be treated with the utmost respect and regard – as I’m sure scalpel would similarly do.
It’s a tad disappointing to see the puerile personal insults flying thick and fast.
All we’ve got here is a failure to communicate. Some Bubbas, you just can’t reach…
Ha!
Dork, Certified Moonbat
ps – scalpel, you can drain my abscess anytime
Oh, and by the way, Tim and Graham (because in my zeal during this good-ole-rip-roaring debate) I forgot to add this: I don’t have what you call “pent-up hostility”. Hell no, my dears! This little tornado cracked me up and juiced my gizzard! I am a good ole fashioned rowdy Texan girl, raised by a oil wildcat and a gorgeous southern belle—and I am completely unafraid of a fair fight. I can give as good as I get. I still stand by what I said as I think your arguments are weak and whiny at best. If you were true gentlemen (and knew anything at all about Texan females) you would never have tangled with me. I eat sanctimonious, tender-hearted, lily-livered greenhorns like you for breakfast! So, cowboys, until the next time…I’ll be over here at Podunk, tending to my patients…
Bohemian Road Nurse,
i can’t help but feel that you still haven’t responded to any of my points. i’m trying to explain WHY this is actually serious, but instead of telling me where my logic is wrong, you’re just continuing to insist that it’s not serious.
i think a lot of these blog comment-wars go nowhere because neither side is willing to acknowledge the other’s rebuttal. perhaps i am guilty of this as well (though i don’t think so). in the interests of maybe making a bit of progress, can you respond to this question which i posted before:
“i think Graham’s point is perhaps the easiest way to break through this mental block: recall the original story, substitute a stereotyped behavior associated with black people, and a joke some celebrity had made using the N word. would this still be acceptable?”
I am giving the readers a chance to decide on who they agree with.
I personally am behind the freedom to try to use a little humor and have blogged on this with a poll:
http://roboticsurgeon.blogspot.com/2007/03/gay-bashing-in-medical-blogosphere-or.html
Waa – someone told a joke and your thin skin got a little bruised.
Suck it up.
Think gay jokes are still acceptable?
Obviously you haven’t walked in the shoes of a fat girl. See the stares. The hateful comments about your weight. How you shouldn’t eat that. Listen to doctors say bluntly that you’re fat and you’re too big.
Have sales attendants in some stores tell you blatantly they don’t have clothes to fit the “large people”.
Laughing, commenting, being rude to, and making jokes about fat people is the ONLY acceptable discrimination in today’s day and age. Make a comment about a gay person – this is what you get. Make a comment about a black, Chinese, Indian etc. You get similar comments.
But make a crack at a fat chick stuffing her face with a donut? You get hired to perform at the comedy club open mic night.
So – like I said – suck it up. Don’t like it – don’t read it.
Mari, i don’t follow your argument. you seem to be implying the following:
(1) ethnic and sexual minorities shouldn’t complain about discrimination, because discrimination against overweight people is still considered acceptable.
(2) discrimination against overweight people should not be acceptable.
does this mean that if society stopped discriminating against overweight people, only then would it become OK to complain about other forms of discrimination?
i’d be interested in your response to the specific question in my above post as well.
Tim, “baiting” me isn’t going to get you anywhere.
BRN, you can call it “baiting” if you like, but it seems like what may have happened is: i’ve posed a question you can’t answer without revealing that you’re mistaken on this. i think that’s a fairly standard tactic in debate–especially in “rip-roaring” ones!
“recall the original story, substitute a stereotyped behavior associated with black people, and a joke some celebrity had made using the N word. would this still be acceptable?”
As in, “this patient was interrupting me so much he must have thought I looked like Michael Richards”
Acceptable. Deal with it.
To back out a bit, I’m a non-medical type. I’ve been startled to see the level of disdain that doctors — usually male doctors — express towards their patients in their blogs generally. I’ve tried to understand this in terms of EMTALA, the American class system and the broken American medical insurance system. But I really have to come to the conclusion that there are a high proportion of total jerks out there responsible for people’s intimate care. On the one hand, the fact that these total jerks are often able to rise to the occasion of caring for patients they despise is a testament to the infinite complexity of the human being. It’s sweet in a way.
It’s also a simple matter of self-selection. The sorts of people who thrive in an ER environment are presumably adrenaline junkies who temperamentally resemble, say, football players. It’s greate that we have adrenaline junkies around because they fill different places in the human fabric that we live in from those of us who like our worlds to function in a more soothing manner. But adrenaline junkies have their own limitations, just as the rest of us have ours. A common (though not universal) limitation of the adrenaline junkie seems to be resistance to thought and contemplation, and a tendency to keep the mind closed. My personal limitations run along the lines of executive functioning.
Facing the disdain of medical personnel for patients backs up my fear of dealing with unknown doctors, adds credibility to the tales I hear of people being treated badly by the medical system, and is consistent with suspicions I have occasionally had about being treated badly. But hey, the blogs aren’t being written for me or to make me feel good.
To respond to commenters above: I don’t make jokes about
“hysterical Hispanics (poly I), African Americans (poly lordy), gold teeth, tattoos, white trash (teeth/tattoo ratio), Medicaid Escalades, ebonic talk
“bitch”, “dumb-blonde”, “drunk”, “religious fanatic”, “religious fundamentalist”, “hysterical female”, “woman driver” ”
and I don’t find them funny. I just don’t. I’m not secretly giggling at dumb blonde jokes and sternly reprimanding myself to keep a straight face: I just don’t think they’re funny. They make no sense to me. I’m actually interested in people. I want to know what makes them tick, especially if they’re different from me.
If someone is especially difficult to deal with because they are hopelessly self-centred, yes I am as frustrated as anyone else but I don’t blame it on their ethnicity. I just want to learn how to deal with them more effectively, and recognise that their personal limitations are a handicap for them, making it difficult for them to get the most out of life and their interactions with people and services. I also think it’s important for me to do my part by disentangling the person’s individual limitations (self-absorption, cognitive limitations) from cultural presentations, and responding the best way I can to both while focussing on the outcome we are trying to reach.
When a colleague says “that’s mighty white of you,” I say “What?” until he rephrases to “generous.” When I thought a co-worker was going to be fired for being black, I told my employer that they could do what they wanted but I was not going to keep a job that I had access to partially on the basis of being white. They could fire her but I would quit. (We both kept our jobs.) She never knew about the intervention, and she always thought I was a terrible person for being a lesbian. She would never want her children to know me, for instance.
I did my high school in Africa, and learned a lot about both the people of the country I lived in and the evangelical christian missionaries I went to school with.
I attended a liberal arts college in the US with a lot of extremely entitled rich white kids, and learned a lot from them too.
I still learn from people every day. It’s one of the terrific things about living. Usually I learn things that add to my understanding of the complexity of the human condition. Sometimes I learn that people are just as limited as they seem. That’s disappointing.
Being open to different ways of different ways of doing things, or of being, doesn’t mean suspending all judgement. Some behaviours are better than others; some people are less limited and more effective than others; some societies are less oppressive than others.
Ridiculing people on the basis of sexual orientation does not mark anyone as a superior human being. (And yes, I have spoken up to defend heterosexuals too: when folks in a college LGBT group were giggling about the limited, unimaginative, boring sex lives of hets, I pointed out that heterosexuals do everything gays and lesbians do, and one thing gays and lesbians don’t.)
Anyway, thanks Graham for speaking up.
scalpel, in your example, the punchline is not you calling someone a thinly-veiled substitute for the N-word in order to draw attention to a stereotyped behavior of black people.
i’m sure you can appreciate how this is materially different. so let me spell out for you an actually equivalent situation.
let’s make the following hypothetical example. i didn’t catch Michael Richards’s rant, but let’s say he addressed a specific person, John Smith, and called him a n_____. because of this, “John Smith” and the N word become temporarily synonymous. and let’s say that, hypothetically, complaining a lot is a stereotype associated with black people.
now a black patient comes into your ER and happens to complain a lot. you blog up the story, drawing specific attention to the patient’s race for no reason, and conclude by saying he took your treatment “like, well… John Smith.”
this is a clumsy but equivalent scenario, and i hope you understand why i and others find it unacceptable. if you still think the above example would be fine blogging material, then i would guess we’re not going to resolve anything here, but i’d urge you to read some minority perspectives on hate speech in the interests of not giving the impression of bigotry in the future.
We don’t disdain most of our patients. We are just like anyone else: we disdain people (patients) who lie to us, who try to scam us, who make our job more difficult than it has to be, who are overly demanding or who don’t pay us for our services.
And yet because we are caring professionals, we usually give them the benefit of the doubt. We do more compassionate things for people every day than most of the “compassionate talkers” here probably do in a year. So excuse us for blowing off a little steam.
Or not. I don’t really seek anyone’s approval to type stuff on the internet.
Tim, your hypothetical construct is indeed awkward, but you are the one who thought you could make it work.
scalpel:
awkward? yes. equivalent? also yes. your original post also depended on a series of improbable and horrific events.
if you find it too difficult to work with, we can make it even simpler. you undoubtedly meant “John Edwards” to mean “faggot” in your post. so just re-read that post and sub in “black” for “gay”, and the N-word for “John Edwards.”
i am still waiting on your answer. it has to be either that the hypothetical entry is acceptable or unacceptable, or that the story is somehow not equivalent, in which case, why on earth not?
Your hypothetical situation is still unacceptably weak because you haven’t come up with a reasonable comparison. I didn’t use the word faggot, and I wouldn’t use the “n word” either. The disconnect is what made it acceptable to me (and incidentally, what made it a joke instead of something hateful). I don’t really care if you agree or not, but that’s about all I’m going to say about it.
You guys are all wringing your hands about something that means nothing to me, and I’m not going to dance or jump through any hoops for you.
Scalpel, there are just certain boundaries that aren’t acceptable to cross here. This has nothing to do with other people’s over-sensitivity, but has everything to do with appropriateness and respect for others.
You’d hardly (I would hope) talk about a frugal person as being “a Jew”, for example – an example of a prior, highly inaccurate stereotype that’s just a smaller part of general hateful sentiment. The gay community’s endured a lot already over the course of history, and to use that epithet and to conjure up that stereotype does a lot to recall a history of violence and exclusion that doesn’t end today.
I won’t presume to say that your veiled use of the f-word (you used the word, don’t pretend you didn’t) underscores some underlying bias. It is, however, helpful to understand that the word conjures up connotations that are beyond your control. Let’s just call it what it was: a tactless, tasteless joke. Why can’t we just learn from it, without being defensive?
This can likely drag on forever, but I think that’s the main point, Scalpel.
I didn’t at all take it like a joke. (As several posters have already said, don’t quit your day job.) You didn’t *need* to use the word faggot–you used “John Edwards,” which in the recent context was meant to mean faggot.
I don’t believe I have particularly thin skin, as many have claimed, or that I can’t take a joke. (Being gay gives you thicker skin than most people, trust me.)
But I really don’t think I’m over-reacting here. I *guarantee* you we would not be having this conversation if Scalpel had described a Mexican person as “acting like a spic.”
If you would have been fine with a comment like that, we’re pretty much done here.
To AlAlison: The ER isn’t all adrenaline and excitement like you see on TV. There are many other things that you have to enjoy to go into Emergency Medicine besides cracking chests and placing lines. None of the residents or attendings I can think of have anything of a “football” mentality at all.
scalpel wrote:
> The disconnect is what made it acceptable to me.
i don’t get it… so you are saying, if you had used the real word “faggot,” it would have been unacceptable and hateful? but as long as you made perfectly clear what you meant, but didn’t use the actual word, it’s somehow fine? doesn’t make sense. simple transitive property, isn’t it? antecedent distance may in some cases boost humor, but it does not diminish denigrating intent.
> You guys are all wringing your hands about something
> that means nothing to me…
how hard is it for you to see that just maybe, the fact that something means a lot to others might indicate it should mean more than nothing to you? perhaps if you or someone you love is ever the victim of a hate crime you will understand why many are sensitive to the words and stereotypes that underlie them. if you go to the reports section of fbi.gov you’ll find that over 1,000 hate crimes based on sexual orientation are reported annually in the U.S. (and the true number is vastly underreported, i assure you). demeaning jokes about gay people and referencing the hateful words directed against them undeniably promotes a culture of intolerance, discrimination, and violence. that’s why i wish you’d make *people*, not gays or any other minority group, the butt of your jokes and complaints.
incidentally, i think you could handily, graciously and professionally have avoided this whole BP-raising conversation by saying something like the following at the outset: “i never intended to offend anyone and i don’t consider myself a bigot, but i will think about the points you raised. thanks for your input.” would be even better if you really meant it.
“Being gay gives you thicker skin than most people, trust me.”
Not if you lube properly.
Ouch!
I don’t give a fuck if I offend anyone, btw. I’m not the touchy-feely “kumbaya around the campfire” San Francisco/Seattle type of ER doc.
Texas and Texans are different than you. It’s part of our culture, and your liberalism should allow (no, demand!) you to accept other cultures even if sometimes we shock or offend you. Cuz that’s how y’all roll, right?
Texas and Texans are different than you. It’s part of our culture, and your liberalism should allow (no, demand!) you to accept other cultures even if sometimes we shock or offend you. Cuz that’s how y’all roll, right?
Because by “roll” you mean “roll over.” Not today, sir. You write in public, you get called on being wrong. And you are. What you say in public, affects people. Do what you want in private, but in public you will be called to account.
You give Texans a bad name. “Look, I’m a Texan, and therefore I’m proud to be a bigot, just like the stereotype says!”
I’m not prejudiced against any ethnic or lifestyle group, but I reserve the right to make fun of any of them any time I want. That’s not bigotry.
If you’re buying into the stereotypes, and supporting them by their use, then that is bigotry, sir. You choose to make fun of the ethnic group, rather than the person in front of you and JUST him or her, then that is bigotry, sir.
You don’t know me, and it’s pathetic of you to assume that I give anyone less than the most compassionate professional care because of anything I write on the internets.
I make no assumptions about the quality of your care, I just question the content of this facet of your character. You can be professional, and still be an ass. How is this news?
don’t give a fuck if I offend anyone, btw.
Case in point.
CS
So using slurs is “part of your culture.” Uhm, okay.
Captain Sunshine is right, you give Texas a bad name–don’t hide behind Texas. I know *plenty* of Texans who would beg to differ that it’s part of their culture.
> don’t give a fuck if I offend anyone, btw.
How mature and eloquent of you. (But my opinion doesn’t count, I’m just a medical student!)
Closing this thread, as it’ll go on for days, and I’ve got a poster and paper to get out.